This LB'er situation is going to be the most telling once the season starts because if they want the 2 best athletes at the position on the field in nickel or base it will be Holcomb & Davis. Now, in base it could be Mayo ( MIKE) Holcomb (SAM) & davis (WILL) as which would suit Rivera just fine as he likes them as positioned by the comments he has made. However Holcomb is seemingly poised to be the MIKE with all the rest of reports and has stated he rather call the defense from MIKE vs SAM, which he has stated. In Buffalo 5c,reports from OTA now say Curl is likely back again in that role with Holcomb as MIKE, that leaves Davis to see if he can hold his own when targeted as a SAM.
While it all seems to make sense on paper, I really feel we are an injury or two away from disaster. I am confident that they will address depth at the LB position, and you never know one of the UDFAs may be able to step up!
Yeah, I thought they’d add another LB or two after the draft, especially as Rivera pointed out they wanted some depth there. But they know they can always sign a vet like an A.J. Klein a week or two into training camp and he’ll slot right in because he’s been with the staff before and knows how the league works etc. Probably want to give the young guys a chance to make a claim for their spots first before then adding another vet into the mix around training camp.
Great writeup. Love to hear you explain the (to you) basics, like the mesh and cover 3, that really most fans, and I, don't know.
Few trolls...I mean against the grain comments.
1. LB.
Fans (and maybe you) seem to be sleeping on that Mayo bumped Davis down the depth chart last year. He didn't get injured. And Davis didn't magically acquire super powers. So I don't see a good reason to just count that dynamic out again next year. That the team is actually better off with Mayo and Holcomb than with the Davis and Holcomb. Athletic talent is not as important as playing your spots.
Also, FWIW, it's seemed like Hudson looked bad on the few times (very few) he was in the game. Think a lot of fans and media are still stuck on the hopium from years ago with him and don't notice what a scrub he is. Might have a hard time getting another job if he washes out in DC. There's not much to see to like for outsiders (not invested in the old hopes).
2. QB.
I hear ya that mesh (same as "rub route"?) is nothing new for Carson. It is interesting that there are rumblings nevertheless that Turner's system is hard for QBs to pick up. Maybe not the concepts but the phrases. But there have consistently been comments that people like Taylor, Kyle, Teddy, Cam had an advantage given familiarity. And Fitz made a few noises to the effect that it was a pain to pick up, even for a Harvard MENSIAC with lots of different teams played for...said it was different somehow. (But we never got enough play to see if it affected him.)
I'm NOT predicting a calamity. Just caution. Think fans and media are too fast to assume everything will be fine, to ignore risk. IOW, burden of proof is on something being wrong, versus it being a possibility. So, we do need to see how Carson takes to the new offense. (Same with the Center, DE, and TE return from injuries...assuming all perfectly back to pre injury form. And the history of players coming back from injuries means we should have some rational caution that it's at least reasonably possible one ore more may struggle.)
For the point on LBs, Mayo bumped Davis because he was playing the Mike and making calls. If Holcomb is taking over that spot this season as the team seems to want, then it would be Mayo vs Davis for the Will spot, whic Davis would almost certainly win. (If he doesn't, then there is definitely reason for concern)
On the second point, I'd imagine this offense is harder to learn due to terminology. Most of the league is in some form of west coast offense (at least terminology wise) from the Kyle Shanahan/Sean McVay trees, and there's plenty of other WCO play-callers out there too. The Air Coryell uses the digit system for routes, which is very different from WCO systems which use numbers for protections.
That system evolved when most teams used 21 personnel and only had the 2 WRs and a TE running routes, with the backs either protecting or being able to be named routes. So a play might be called "525 F Post" in this system, which tells the two outside receivers to run 5 routes (comebacks), the tight end to run a 2 (shallow cross) and the fullback to run the F post. In Sean McVay's system, that would be called "Quick Seam Puma". Quick Seam is the concept with the tight end and running back while Puma tells the outside receivers to run the comebacks.
So that is pretty different itself, but with the league evolving to more 3 and even 4 WR sets, with every eligible receiver running routes, it becomes far too much to spit out 5 numbers every play and for every receiver to know exactly which number is assigned to them on the play. So with some concepts, this offense has adopted some names for concepts too. Terms like "Anchor", "Frisco" and "Mystic" all refer to separate concepts, much like how quick seam refers to an individual concept. So the playbook then becomes a mix of terms and numbers for route concepts, which is a lot to remember.
But just because it's more difficult to pick up doesn't mean it can't be picked up. The thing with Turners system is that he likes to install a bunch of formations and motions, which is a lot to learn, but the benefit of that is when it comes to actual concepts for the quarterback to learn, they can focus in on a small group that the QB really likes and run them routinely while disguising them with all the different formations and motions. So it's a sharp initial learning curve, certainly with language, but in the long run it allows the QB to have consistent reads on the field with concepts he's very familiar with.
Well, I think Holcomb was playing the Mike and making the calls, when he was on the field with Davis for most of the year. There was all this kerflutter about Davis being the Mike and making calls in camp. But I didn't see that during the season.
And even if I'm wrong, why didn't they make the shift that you envision now, at the time? They had that option. Instead they brought Mayo in. And Holcomb can mouth off all he wants, but the coaches decided to bring Mayo in and green dot him. So, some of that stick is on Cole also. Not just Jamin.
Great explanation on the terminology. Again, not predicting a problem. Just...it's possible. We have seen QBs succeed in different systems and not in others. It's not assured victory or failure. But at least an open question.
Scuttlebutt is that Davis continues to be nothing special at practice. Fans and writers need to get over his draft status.
There is just this bad, bad tendency to get fixed into certain positions and not look at new information. Coaches could have had Cole and Jamin together last season. And instead brought in Mayo. That should send alarms to all the Jamin lovers. And it's not the coaches being malicious. They would love to justify their draft picks, also. But they can see the clear evidence.
So much for "rookie of the year" Jamin Davis! Overdrafted, overdrafted, overdrafted. Sunk cost, now. He needs to earn his starts now. No more gift reps.
This LB'er situation is going to be the most telling once the season starts because if they want the 2 best athletes at the position on the field in nickel or base it will be Holcomb & Davis. Now, in base it could be Mayo ( MIKE) Holcomb (SAM) & davis (WILL) as which would suit Rivera just fine as he likes them as positioned by the comments he has made. However Holcomb is seemingly poised to be the MIKE with all the rest of reports and has stated he rather call the defense from MIKE vs SAM, which he has stated. In Buffalo 5c,reports from OTA now say Curl is likely back again in that role with Holcomb as MIKE, that leaves Davis to see if he can hold his own when targeted as a SAM.
Definitely the spot with the most questions around it in training camp. Will be interesting to see how it plays out come week 1
While it all seems to make sense on paper, I really feel we are an injury or two away from disaster. I am confident that they will address depth at the LB position, and you never know one of the UDFAs may be able to step up!
Yeah, I thought they’d add another LB or two after the draft, especially as Rivera pointed out they wanted some depth there. But they know they can always sign a vet like an A.J. Klein a week or two into training camp and he’ll slot right in because he’s been with the staff before and knows how the league works etc. Probably want to give the young guys a chance to make a claim for their spots first before then adding another vet into the mix around training camp.
Great writeup. Love to hear you explain the (to you) basics, like the mesh and cover 3, that really most fans, and I, don't know.
Few trolls...I mean against the grain comments.
1. LB.
Fans (and maybe you) seem to be sleeping on that Mayo bumped Davis down the depth chart last year. He didn't get injured. And Davis didn't magically acquire super powers. So I don't see a good reason to just count that dynamic out again next year. That the team is actually better off with Mayo and Holcomb than with the Davis and Holcomb. Athletic talent is not as important as playing your spots.
Also, FWIW, it's seemed like Hudson looked bad on the few times (very few) he was in the game. Think a lot of fans and media are still stuck on the hopium from years ago with him and don't notice what a scrub he is. Might have a hard time getting another job if he washes out in DC. There's not much to see to like for outsiders (not invested in the old hopes).
2. QB.
I hear ya that mesh (same as "rub route"?) is nothing new for Carson. It is interesting that there are rumblings nevertheless that Turner's system is hard for QBs to pick up. Maybe not the concepts but the phrases. But there have consistently been comments that people like Taylor, Kyle, Teddy, Cam had an advantage given familiarity. And Fitz made a few noises to the effect that it was a pain to pick up, even for a Harvard MENSIAC with lots of different teams played for...said it was different somehow. (But we never got enough play to see if it affected him.)
I'm NOT predicting a calamity. Just caution. Think fans and media are too fast to assume everything will be fine, to ignore risk. IOW, burden of proof is on something being wrong, versus it being a possibility. So, we do need to see how Carson takes to the new offense. (Same with the Center, DE, and TE return from injuries...assuming all perfectly back to pre injury form. And the history of players coming back from injuries means we should have some rational caution that it's at least reasonably possible one ore more may struggle.)
For the point on LBs, Mayo bumped Davis because he was playing the Mike and making calls. If Holcomb is taking over that spot this season as the team seems to want, then it would be Mayo vs Davis for the Will spot, whic Davis would almost certainly win. (If he doesn't, then there is definitely reason for concern)
On the second point, I'd imagine this offense is harder to learn due to terminology. Most of the league is in some form of west coast offense (at least terminology wise) from the Kyle Shanahan/Sean McVay trees, and there's plenty of other WCO play-callers out there too. The Air Coryell uses the digit system for routes, which is very different from WCO systems which use numbers for protections.
That system evolved when most teams used 21 personnel and only had the 2 WRs and a TE running routes, with the backs either protecting or being able to be named routes. So a play might be called "525 F Post" in this system, which tells the two outside receivers to run 5 routes (comebacks), the tight end to run a 2 (shallow cross) and the fullback to run the F post. In Sean McVay's system, that would be called "Quick Seam Puma". Quick Seam is the concept with the tight end and running back while Puma tells the outside receivers to run the comebacks.
So that is pretty different itself, but with the league evolving to more 3 and even 4 WR sets, with every eligible receiver running routes, it becomes far too much to spit out 5 numbers every play and for every receiver to know exactly which number is assigned to them on the play. So with some concepts, this offense has adopted some names for concepts too. Terms like "Anchor", "Frisco" and "Mystic" all refer to separate concepts, much like how quick seam refers to an individual concept. So the playbook then becomes a mix of terms and numbers for route concepts, which is a lot to remember.
But just because it's more difficult to pick up doesn't mean it can't be picked up. The thing with Turners system is that he likes to install a bunch of formations and motions, which is a lot to learn, but the benefit of that is when it comes to actual concepts for the quarterback to learn, they can focus in on a small group that the QB really likes and run them routinely while disguising them with all the different formations and motions. So it's a sharp initial learning curve, certainly with language, but in the long run it allows the QB to have consistent reads on the field with concepts he's very familiar with.
Well, I think Holcomb was playing the Mike and making the calls, when he was on the field with Davis for most of the year. There was all this kerflutter about Davis being the Mike and making calls in camp. But I didn't see that during the season.
And even if I'm wrong, why didn't they make the shift that you envision now, at the time? They had that option. Instead they brought Mayo in. And Holcomb can mouth off all he wants, but the coaches decided to bring Mayo in and green dot him. So, some of that stick is on Cole also. Not just Jamin.
Great explanation on the terminology. Again, not predicting a problem. Just...it's possible. We have seen QBs succeed in different systems and not in others. It's not assured victory or failure. But at least an open question.
Scuttlebutt is that Davis continues to be nothing special at practice. Fans and writers need to get over his draft status.
There is just this bad, bad tendency to get fixed into certain positions and not look at new information. Coaches could have had Cole and Jamin together last season. And instead brought in Mayo. That should send alarms to all the Jamin lovers. And it's not the coaches being malicious. They would love to justify their draft picks, also. But they can see the clear evidence.
So much for "rookie of the year" Jamin Davis! Overdrafted, overdrafted, overdrafted. Sunk cost, now. He needs to earn his starts now. No more gift reps.